episode 18: JEANNE MOCHEL, HEAD OF APPAREL

8 March 2024
Photos used with permission from Jeanne Mochel
In this episode I talked with Jeanne Mochel about her experience in the outdoor industry working as the Head of Apparel at Mammut Sports Group. She shares how a clear goal and drive, but also a willingness to take some detours, played a major part in her success. Jeanne reminds us that working in the outdoor industry isn't always where you get the most outdoor time but it is a catalyst for a lot of outdoor adventures. She candidly shares some of the pitfalls of working in an industry you're passionate about and how the boundaries between work and private life can be blurred. And Jeanne has some great advice for anyone considering product development in the outdoor industry.
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BEST PLACE TO FOLLOW JEANNE AND LEARN MORE ABOUT HER:

SHOWNOTES:

* Music by Olexy from Pixabay
* Featured in this podcast: Jeanne Mochel * Mentioned in this episode:

​TRANSCRIPT

I'm Charlaine Jannerfeldt, and you're listening to About that outdoor job. 

" This is a bit where I fell in love, actually, with the outdoors. Coming, going away a little bit from this action sports world and stepping into the outdoors."

This is Jeanne Mochel, head of apparel at Mahmoud Sports Group.

As we're completing our sound check before we start the interview, Jeanne mentioned she's off for some serious hiking and scrambling that weekend. You'd expect that she's quite outdoorsy. But she's quick to let me know that, though she's now a hiker, a climber, and a mountaineer, those activities were not part of her childhood.​

" I grew up in the city, so I'm not one of those kids who was running in the forest every day, but I was a Girl Scout. So I think my earliest, uh, pure outdoor nature adventures took place on those, uh, camps, summer camps we were doing. And I remember this one particular thing, I think I was around 9 or 10 years old and we got the mission to keep the fire alive during the whole night. So that was kind of a big thing as a 9 or 10 years old to be allowed to stay up through the whole night on your own, like without an adult watching you. And this I remember I found really cool. "

And though Jeanne grew up in a landlocked city in France, near the borders of Germany and Luxembourg, As a kid, she still had this fascination with action sports like surfing, and it ended up playing a huge role in her entering the outdoor industry.

" For some reason, even though I grew up in a city far from the sea and far from the mountains, even as a kid I've always been attracted to sports like surfing, skiing, snowboarding. I didn't know what mountaineering was back then. But so more coming from the action sports. These are also maybe things I could see on television, I guess. I'm not sure.

And there was a TV show when I was a kid. Maybe it still exists. It's called Thalassa.  And my parents used to watch it every week. My, my dad is a huge ocean and water sports fan. And one day, I think I was around 12 or 13, they did an episode  on a famous surfing company. I think it was Quicksilver and the lifestyle of the people working there. And I remember watching this, like the people getting up in the morning, going for a surf, then arriving with wet hair and the surfboard at the office. I remember this was the moment I decided this is the lifestyle I want to have as an adult. And this was for me set then."

A lot of our guests seem to have fallen into their outdoor jobs, but Jeanne, she took deliberate steps towards this goal. She was driven to have the outdoor lifestyle she'd glimpsed in her early teens, and make her living in the outdoor industry.​

You were clear from the get go that your objective was to work in the outdoor industry. So, what did you do first to start forging your path in that direction?
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" Coming more from the action sports, I decided to move to Bordeaux, which is at the Atlantic coast, for my study. I'm not gonna lie, the location was a great motivation for me to choose to study there. It was not random at all. "

A beautiful seaside city, the surf culture, I mean, that would be enough to attract most university students. But there was more to it than that for you, right?

" And in fact, the school that I decided to attend in Bordeaux, they had a student organisation organising surf competitions, things like that. And you could really tell that there was a  culture for that in that school. And that was for me the most important factor because the classes were the same in all the schools. The topics were the same in all the schools, but there were those little details that I was looking at. "

Jeanne had the opportunity to do a year long internship as part of her university program. Her ambitions were still clear and unchanged, so she focused her efforts on snagging an internship spot with a well known French outdoor gear company. And she did just that. And it had a more profound impact than even Jeanne could have imagined.​

" I looked for a company to do this one year internship that I had the possibility to do. And back in the days, I liked Salomon very much. It's a French company. So I knew it automatically. They're also well known for their snowboards. I was a snowboarder. So this was a bit the link. And I went for a year there. And this is really the moment I got to know what it is to live in the mountains because the company is located in Annecy, which is a super pretty French city at the heart of the Alps. I was surrounded by people going climbing, mountaineering, hiking, and I got the chance to know all that. And this is a bit where I fell in love actually with the outdoors, going away a little bit from this action sports world and stepping into, into the outdoors. Yeah. "

4:44
You had a clear goal, you were driven, you had a plan. Was it that straightforward, that linear?​

" I'm not saying that I did a straight line to the outdoor industry either, because between Salomon and the job I'm having now, I was in the sports industry, but not related to outdoors. So you also need sometimes to accept to take some other ways. But everything I did, and my whole reflection on what would be the next step was really "Does it play into the goal that I have? Yes or no?" And if not I wouldn't do it. But yeah, in the end, it was really being driven by this one goal and really always reflecting "Is this next step supporting this goal? Yes or no?" And then it's a little bit of being at the right moment at the right time. There's always a part of chance for sure. "

And so Jeanne followed her own advice by capitalizing on her experience with action sports. She got her foot in the door by starting her career with French sporting goods retailer, Decathlon. First, as a merchandiser, literally starting on the shop floor. She then moved on to their German headquarters to develop the brand's German market. And these experiences, they got her notice when she did go for that job in the outdoor industry. So after Decathlon, you land a job with Mahmoud Sports Group, an iconic Swiss multinational mountain sports outfitter.​

You first start as a category manager for footwear, and after five years you apply internally to be considered as a product manager. What made you want to transition to product development? ​

" I've always been a very product driven person. It was also, I think,  somehow a little bit the reason why I made the move from Decathlon to Mammut. And I really wanted to be more involved in product development. "

What appeals to you about product development?

" Creating products that serve people who are passionate about the same things that I am and helping building products that will last, that will work out also in harsh environment and that would last for a long time. I'm a little bit of a product nerd myself as well. So I just like it. Yes. "

So if you're going to be involved in developing outdoor apparel for mountain sports. Should you be an experienced mountaineer, climber, or skier to have the right profile?

" I don't think it was a must. There is absolutely, there was no, never a pressure to be super good at it. I'm also not a good climber, not a good mountaineer. But it's just about being interested in the field and not being a pro. "

​Today you're heading Apparel at Mammut. That usually means a more strategic role, more people management, a little less hands on with the actual product development. For a self proclaimed product nerd, how has that transition been for you?​

" Yes, it's a difficult step.  I loved it, though. It was a really cool journey. Indeed, I must say it wasn't super easy to let go of my product nerd side. And I would say I'm also still working on it. I tend to have strong opinions on products and what we should do and should not do. And I'm still definitely still working on myself to give more space to the product managers in my team, but, I'm still involved in the end. I need to know what's happening. I need to know what we do. I need to agree on it somehow as well. Sometimes I have different opinions from my team and having a different opinion means sometimes that I have to be strict and say "no" this is the way we're going to do it. But sometimes I also think "Okay, if this is their opinion, it's also based on something." so I'm going to be brave now and let them do it. It's a mix of both. "

8:34
And what's a typical work week for you?  

One typical week, in the sense that every week I do the exact same task. Our weeks are very much influenced by the the status of the collection development. The collection development takes a certain time and then there is a phase at the beginning which is more brainstorming and the more creative part and then there's a phase in the middle where it's more about bringing the ideas into physical products and then fine tuning and then in between happens all those milestones and meetings. It's not like each week is looking the same, that I'm doing the same things but I would say that definitely there is a big part every week which is managing my team or team related topics. So one-on-one meetings with everyone in my teams but also team meetings. Delegating and coordinating tasks.

I'm very lucky. I have a very, very professional and very independent team. They know what they have to do and they just do it. But there are very regularly continuous task coming  to me. So I also need somehow to coordinate and delegate so that I don't have to do everything on my own. And manage capacity. So this is really like the team related block of my work. And there is no week where I don't spend time on that. It's definitely a big and a very, very important part of my job. Then there is the second part, which is more around influenceship. So I'm basically representing my team and also our collection in all crossdepartment meetings or in conversation with my supervisor or with the general management. So this would be like the second area. And the third area is much more working on the strategy. Middle term plan having, yeah, the company strategy giving you a certain framework, and then you work for your area on matching middle term plan and on the strategy. "

For those of you who are regular listeners to the podcast, you know, I always ask my guests how much outdoor time they actually get in their role in the outdoor industry. This time was no different, but I've got to say.  Jeanne's unequivocal answer on how little her job is spent outdoors was really a surprise to me. I guess I created this idolised picture of a group of product developers and their leader, aka Jeanne, spending quite some time up a mountain, testing or observing others test the apparel.

" It's office based.  99 percent of my job takes place in the office or in home office, that takes place in front of the computer and I need to be very clear on that. Also, maybe people who would like to become product managers go out a little bit more than myself but it's still an office job. Definitely. "

11:23
Wow. Only 1 percent of your time spent outdoors. So when you are heading out for work, What are you doing?

" So this one time I'm going outside right now is when I go out with my team to test new products. Each season we develop new products and we make sure we go out together to test them. We test them also privately. I don't really look good when I go out in the mountain because I'm wearing prototypes most of the time and I look like a clown. But we also make sure that we go out as a team. To test the stuff and then talk about the products, what we noticed, the fabrics, the workmanship, the pockets here, the zipper there. It's on one hand a bit of team building and on the other hand, it's having an occasion to get out of the office  and, and somehow, yeah, be really focused on the collection and the products without all the things coming and interfering like it is in the office. "

I'm going to play devil's advocate here, but I've got to ask, on a gorgeous bluebird day with fresh snow, would you not rather be working in the mountains?

"First of all, I don't have problems to get out of bed to go work. I'm really passionate about what I do. I, I don't really need to motivate myself in the morning. It goes quite automatically. I will always be a product nerd, I guess. You should see me when a box arrives with new prototypes or with the new collection. It's like Christmas every time. So I'm having Christmas like 10 times a year. It's quite cool. And the second thing is the people. The people I work with, as I mentioned, some of them became good friends. Also one of those is my partner in life. But even my colleagues who are not close friends and so on, all the people I work with,  inspire me and motivate me. And make it easy for me to go to work every single day. "

And when I press Jeanne a bit more about this lack of outdoor time in her job, she reminds me that it's not the outdoor time on the job per se, but it's the outdoor community she gets to be part of that feeds her personal adventuring. And they do adventure regularly as a company. ​

" Once a year we have a fun day. The whole company gathers together and we do it once in the summer, the other year we do it in winter and we go on outdoor adventures together. When you work for a company like Mammut, you automatically get in touch with the athletes. You get to know them.  You can also hire them on a private level to go in the mountains with them. Most of them are mountain guides. And then it's also simply the fact that when you work in this industry  you are surrounded by people who like the same things that you do and you meet a huge amount of persons who will go out with you. And this automatically also  increases the amount of opportunities that you have to go outside.

In fact, when I started at Mammut as a category manager, there was another girl starting at the same time. Her name is Regina. Hi Regina, in case she's listening. She was a product manager for footwear and I was category manager for footwear. We were same age, both a bit, uh, yes, crazy about all those sports. And she's a much, much better. mountaineer than I am, but I was always ready for any adventures. So I would say my first proper alpine mountaineering adventure I did with her. It was a climb called Dents du Géant. It's in the Mont Blanc area. We had, as it is always when you go out, also a little bit of a surprise. Not everything went as planned but we came back safe. We missed the gondola to get back down to the valley and had to stay one more night in the hut. But it was an amazing day, a great adventure. We had a lot of fun and we learned quite a lot as well that day. But this is one of the many days that I had out with colleagues who are now friends. This has a definitely huge influence. Yes, it becomes part of your life, getting out. "

15:43
And although Jan is passionate about her job, she's also candid that it has its challenges. 

" As I mentioned before, a big part not only of the product manager's role but also of my role is managing relationship with others. It's a huge part of the job which requires a lot of soft skills. This is not something I learned at school or during my study. It maybe changed. I don't know if there are classes for that today, but it was not the case back then. And there is also no workbook, right? I mean, nobody tells you how it goes and how you should do it. And so it requires quite a lot of self reflection and it can be painful and challenging but also very, very interesting because this is how you progress as a person. But this is, I would say, probably the most beautiful and also the most challenging part.  I don't want to put it too negatively because this is a part that I really like. And then I would say the second other thing is when you work in an area you are very, very passionate about,  still manage to a line between private and work. This is not easy. And I mentioned it before, I met my life partner at work. He's also working for the same company. Thank God we don't work together, but still we work with the same people and so on and so on. So it's also still managing to have a line, having also friends who do not work in that company and not being swallowed completely by your work life. You need to keep it a little bit separated. Yes, to not become completely crazy. "

Today, the outdoor industry is still a male dominated real. I wanted to know if Jeanne had faced hurdles in her own career because of her gender. She raised an interesting point, that young women do seem to face some hurdles when they first start in the outdoor industry.But is it because of gender,  or is it youth and inexperience, or is it a bit of both?

" Say when I started the company, I was much younger. I often felt like it was more difficult for me. When I started at Mammut, I wasn't working in the apparel department, so not in the clothing area. I was in another area which was very male driven. I was also very often the youngest in the room. And I was definitely the only non-German speaker, non-native speaker. So yes, I did have the feeling it was more difficult for me, not knowing if it's true or not, right? But it was just my feeling back then. I did sometimes have the feeling that I had to prove myself a little bit more. I'm not going to lie. Not knowing if it's true or not, right? But I did have this gut feeling in the past that I needed to prove more what I was capable of when for certain people it was kind of taken as granted. That they could reach certain things or do certain things. But this is also why I'm saying in my earlier years, I struggled more with it. So now I have the feeling I come into - not saying that everything is easy, I don't think it's easy for anybody - but coming in the phase where I have the feeling I can  fight easier than I used to. Maybe because I already have done certain things and proven certain things. But I remember starting back then, I struggled a bit with it. That's true. "

You pointed out that when you first started at Mammut you weren't in the apparel division. Are things different in apparel?

So in my specific division, we are way more women than men but it's a bit specific to apparel, I would say, or to clothing. But in general, I would agree. And I think it's also fully okay to say that the industry in general is still quite male dominated but things are moving.  So we need the next generations now.  We prepared the path and the next generations need to come. "

Part of the mission of the series Women in Outdoor Jobs is to share the stories and experiences of women like Jeanne who successfully made the outdoors their living, so that women who want to achieve that for themselves, they can benefit from their learnings and advice. 

20:37
What's some of the best advice you've received that's helped you through your career?​

" So when I was still working at Decathlon, there was a, he was not my manager, but he was one of the managers. I think he understood quite well who I was. And one day he just told me a bit out of the blue "You know Jean, in life you should accept to lose certain battles to make sure you win the others. So choose your battles." And this was, I think the first very important learning for me because being very driven, very focused and knowing what I want, I tended to be very strict with others also at a young age.  And no, this is how I want it, and this is how I see things. And I really needed to learn to let go on certain battles, those that maybe do not matter too much to me. To build up more pressure on other ones, those that I really, really needed to win not for me personally, not for my own satisfaction, but because it was meaningful for the job or for whatever goal the company had. "

And what key piece of advice would you give someone who wants to do product development in the outdoor industry?​

" If you're a young one listening to us, don't try to imitate typical male characteristic. Just just be yourself and be confident that it's also good. There is also no right and wrong. The right thing is to mix it up, to mix it all up." 

A huge thank you to Jeanne for taking the time to talk with me for this interview and for giving me lots of time for this edit. You can find her on Instagram at Jeanne Mochel. Other resources are listed in our show notes.

​Thank you for listening. You can find About That Outdoor job on Instagram, our website, and on your favorite podcast listening platforms.

You can support our podcast by subscribing and leaving us a review. A review really makes our podcast more visible, so others can discover it too. This episode was produced and hosted by me, Charlaine Jannerfeldt.